While Earl aka Thebe weathers the Odd Future hypestorm from a safe, voluntary distance, Tyler, The Creator sits in its epicenter. He’s a clever boy just out of his teens whose anti-everything rhetorical baseline is kindling to the adolescent id, who has released a knotty LP Goblin that is kindling to sharp think piece writers and Twitter hashtag enthusiasts. The Daily‘s called the record “a test with no correct answer, a Rorschach blot that refuses to resolve”; @1000TimesYes characterized the album’s voice as saying “Yes I am, no I’m not. Yes I am, no I’m not. Yes I am, no I’m not.” For some the hatred, misogyny, and homophobia’s rampant excess transforms Tyler into something of a piss-taking caricature artist; for others, the vivid, insistent, repellent nature of his lyrical fantasies are inexcusable, by definition, and here, by execution. The discussion is tense, fascinating, exhausting. Tegan & Sara recently took to their site to offer some thoughts from outside the critical discourse, criticizing the discourse itself, expressing disappointment with the discussion and the treatment of his homophobic language. And Tyler replied. It’s all reprinted here:
When will misogynistic and homophobic ranting and raving result in meaningful repercussions in the entertainment industry? When will they be treated with the same seriousness as racist and anti-Semitic offenses? While an artist who can barely get a sentence fragment out without using homophobic slurs is celebrated on the cover of every magazine, blog and newspaper, I’m disheartened that any self-respecting human being could stand in support with a message so vile.
As journalists and colleagues defend, excuse and congratulate ‘Tyler, the Creator,’ I find it impossible not to comment. In any other industry would I be expected to tolerate, overlook and find deeper meaning in this kid’s sickening rhetoric? Why should I care about this music or its “brilliance” when the message is so repulsive and irresponsible? There is much that upsets me in this world, and this certainly isn’t the first time I’ve drafted an open letter or complaint, but in the past I’ve found an opinion – some like-minded commentary – that let me rest assured that my outrage, my voice, had been accounted for. Not this time.
If any of the bands whose records are held in similar esteem as Goblin had lyrics littered with rape fantasies and slurs, would they be labeled hate mongers? I realize I could ask that question of DOZENS of other artists, but is Tyler exempt because people are afraid of the backlash? The inevitable claim that detractors are being racist, or the brush-off that not “getting it” would indicate that you’re “old” (or a faggot)? Because, the more I think about it, the more I think people don’t actually want to go up against this particular bully because he’s popular. Who sticks up for women and gay people now? It seems entirely uncool to do so in the indie rock world, and I’ll argue that point with ANYONE.
No genre is without its controversial and offensive characters- I’m not naive. I’ve asked myself a thousand times why this is pushing me over the edge. Maybe it’s the access to him (his grotesque twitter, etc). Maybe it’s because I’m a human being, both a girl and a lesbian. Maybe it’s because my mom has spent her whole adult life working with teenage girls who were victims of sexual assault. Maybe it’s because in this case I don’t think race or class actually has anything to do with his hateful message but has EVERYTHING to do with why everyone refuses to admonish him for that message.
It is not without great hesitation and hand wringing that I enter into the discourse about Tyler, the media who glorifies and excuses misogyny and homophobia, and the community of artists that doesn’t seem remotely bothered by it. I can only hope that someone reading this might be inspired to speak out. At the very least, I will know that my voice is on record.
Tyler’s response…
…is unfortunate, and true to script.
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The race part of this is what got to me. As if hundreds of rappers before Tyler haven’t used the same imagery and gotten bad reviews.
If we understand anything about entry-level psychology, hatred is rooted in fear and misunderstanding, and however we may worry about the attention OFWGKTA are getting for their brand of hatred, you can rest assured that they are infinitely more frightened of the world than the world is of them. You can’t reason with people as desperate and frightened as these kids. Anyone wanting to get at them need only throw them a similarly-brash, racist, uncompromising, hateful dose of global reality.
Guess what Tyler?
White boys still rule the world.
The world’s attention is increasingly ignoring America in general, much less its petty sub-minorities, who kick and scream like a toddler when they don’t get they french fries.
Toddler, the Creator!!!!!!!!!!
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Wow….just wow. Comparing the response to music made by a 19 year old boy (and I do mean boy) to that of the Third Reich is absolutely ludicrous…..Get a grip amigo.
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I’m not condoning what this kid is saying or preaching, but honestly, if you want to make WWII comparisons, the war in the Pacific had little to do with the European front. Dropping the atomic bomb on Japan had nothing to do with Hitler. Granted there was actually some pro-Nazi sentiment in the U.S. before our involvement in the war, comparisons between this kid Tyler, The Creator and Hitler seems extreme. I seem to remember Eminem being vehemently opposed to homosexuality just a few years ago and now he’s being hailed as the greatest rapper of his era. Where’s your unrest at that? Everyone has there views, and this won’t be settled by a bunch of people on an indie music message forum or by a written rebuttal by Tegan & Sara.
I hate hate hate Eminem with a passion, and am ashamed that I ever liked his music and supported him when GLAAD called him out on his blatant homophobia and misogyny. And I can’t believe that his comeback has been so readily embraced.
Ummmm… did all of you guys miss when Eminem performed at the Grammy’s with Elton John (you know, who is GAY), and they both held their hands together up in the air at the end? Eminem has made numerous mass media (ie: Anderson Cooper) statements on how he has NOTHING against homosexuals and only used the F word as a diss used in the streets.
Completely different and mature from Tyler.
Elton John is an Uncle Tom as far as gay rights are concerned. He came out against gay marriage in California during the Proposition 8 campaign because, essentially, he felt bad for those poor straight people whose feelings would be hurt if they no longer have a monopoly on the term “marriage.” He also performed at Rush Limbaugh’s fourth wedding reception and calls him a personal friend. Pretty sure that doesn’t give Limbaugh automatic lifetime immunity from being a homophobe any more than it does Eminem. Just like saying “I have (gay, black, Latino, female, Jewish, etc.) friends” doesn’t excuse backwards and hateful views and actions towards those groups.
Are you serious? Hes an artist, the only difference between Tyler and Quentin T is that Tyler a teenager/young adult.
to bad your white boys love this shit! OFWGKTADGAF
Rant all you want,the more you complain about Flog Gnaw,the more money he’s getting.None gives to shits about any of this you guys are saying.It’s not about all this bs you guys are talking about,it’s just music teens can relate to.People are going to do, and listen what ever they want,complaining about OF is just pointless.No ones really going to care about this when they’re dead.
HAHA you guys are probably going to say the same thing about the next thing about the next artist or group that make equal shock value.Hell some Metal,death metal,and punk say the same thing,BUT when a group of Africa- Americans do it, people say.” Oh no,unacceptable his music is to violent or offensive!” Nigga please! and yes i said NIGGA NIGGA!
Its hard to say “ignore it and it’ll go away” in these situations. Good for you T&S…this letter was very well written and really drives home the point. This is how ignorance slips through the cracks. What’s really sad is Tyler is riding the indie hip hop wave, which is generally a pretty open minded crew of artist. He will fade, but I agree you can’t be silent in the face of ignorance, even if saying anything only adds fuel to his ego. Kind if like what Eminem did. As individuals/promoters/venue owners/concert promoters/dj’s/fellow musicians, we can voice our opinion and squash this sort of propaganda. Don’t get me wrong…I get what Tyler is doing, but it’s still trite because it’s been done before. I don’t believe for a second he’s the guy he tries to portray on his albums and videos. Thanks T&S
Couldn’t agree more with her.. Finally someone stands up for this.
Artists should have some awareness of the effect of thier work.
Go T&S!
Perhaps age has crept up on me slowly in the previous few years, but I’m more on Tegan & Sara’s side of the fence on this one. It’s not that Tyler, the Creator is reinventing the wheel with his pale regurgitation of the same old schtick music fans have been treated to time and time again, it’s just that the blogosphere herald his every move. Only, this time, the artist who is rehashing this decades-old gimmick can’t seem to give an intelligent interview or response to save his life. Maybe that’s the point of it, but what’s so great about that? There are tons of rappers and emcees that offer the same type of entertainment that Tyler is doing, only they are not drooled over by every blogger or website with a hard-on for whatever latest artist or group that shows a small glimmer of catching on and blowing up.
Why is it the same old sad Youthful Rebellion/ Nietzsche-inspired rhetoric and pale imitation of originators past recycle and rehash without adding anything new or thought-provoking to the mix and receive massive amounts of praise and attention from people who should obviously no better. David Bowie did it best and with more intelligence and gusto than any of the ones that followed could muster in a lifetime. Alice Cooper brought the same variant grotesque Vaudeville theatrics to it’s zenith. Public Enemy had a point when they put out music that was groundbreaking and shocking at the time. Even Marilyn Manson’s shock rock could be defended by it’s singer with striking clarity and insightful intelligence. Saul Williams puts out records that are not only thought-provoking but sonically pleasing while still being poetic.
While I’m about as much of a fan of Tyler, the Creator as I am of Tegan & Sara, I can’t argue with a solid argument. Tyler’s response would only be funny or shocking if we were all immature 13 year old boys who had never seen or heard any form of stand-up comedy, and even then, it’s pushing it.
edit: should know* better
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you’re astonishingly dim.
Any woman demands respect! (Regardless of the race of the man she’s addressing.)
Alert the presses!
HELLS YEAH!!!!!!!
This comment made the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/click-track/post/tegan-and-sara-vs-tyler-the-creator-the-internet-reacts/2011/05/17/AFhqus5G_blog.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruoYIDPwkfg
Yeah, racist.
Side-note: Sara has stated many times that rap, hip-hop, and r&b are her favorite genres of music.
Sara Quin: Eloquent and articulate.
Tyler: Immature dick hole.
The funny thing is: Both of them would approve of this messege.
As much as I want to answer my natural call to lefty liberalism, I don’t think you can really single out Tyler’s homophobic or misogynistic lyrics without at least acknowledging that *all* of his stuff is aggressive and abrasive, in all directions, and intended to be so.
Whether you find that repulsive or appealing is one thing, but I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that he’s zeroed in on either gay folk or women for particularly harsh treatment. I’m not a huge fan, and I’m definitely not an apologist, but even I can see that his misanthropic outlook and naked pursuit of shock value is pretty consistent.
“but I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that he’s zeroed in on either gay folk or women for particularly harsh treatment”
was that what they were doing? perhaps I need to read it again, but it seemed to me that they were simply responding to the content of Tyler’s songs that most affected them and applied to their personal lives-women and homosexuals-rather than suggesting that he has singled them out over all others. hmmm..
That sounds good, but is it true? Really? Consistent across what, or on what basis? Because to me, it seems that he’s TOTALLY zeroed in on both “gay folk and women” for “particularly harsh treatment. ” Isn’t that kind of the point of this whole debate? I can’t claim to know Tyler’s work inside and out, but is there a song where he maligns Latinos, Asians, and black people in equal measure and talks about how ridiculous heterosexual men are?
I’m pretty sure he’s covered at least all of those bases at least once. You’re talking about a group of black kids known to wear swastikas on stage and praise school shooters in magazines – their schtick depends on wrapping up a certain amount of substance in as provocative a wrapper as possible.
You’ve gotta look at lyrics like this in the context of all the other stuff they say and do. Tyler’s response was mindless, and will only confirm the worst of the accusations against him in the eyes of his critics, but it’s in keeping with his uncompromising persona.
If he were to apologise or explain – or perhaps even take the opportunity to point out that one of Odd Future actually *is* a lesbian – it would kind of undermine the sense that the fairly tight knit OF fanbase are in on the joke, laughing at all the outsiders and crochety old grownups like us who keep taking the damn bait.
Again, I’m not an OF fan or looking to play apologist for them, but you’ve got to look at them from a punk perspective rather than in a hip hop context. If you’re going to go ahead and criticise them anyway, fine, all power in the world to you, but at least do it from the right standpoint. I think that’s what Tegan, Sara and now GLAAD are failing to do, and it makes them seem too out of touch to be worth appeasing.
At this point it’s just redundant to acknowledge his general abrasiveness. Regardless, I think the main point here is that Tyler had the opportunity to respond to a thought-out criticism of his lyrics, and he decided to make a fool out of himself with an offensive, idiotic cop out. Had he ignored their criticism, this would be a very different conversation.
Tyler, The Idiot fails at what Marilyn Manson’s been doing for like 20 years. Compare an interview with Tyler about his work vs an interview with MM about his work. SWAG!
I don’t disagree with you there.
I felt I had to reply since I hit the wrong button. As a white, suburban, gay loving chick – I LOVE Tyler, the Creator and OFWGKTA. Especially the song Lisa. CRACKS ME UP!
Get ova yo selves ladies, sit back, smoke a blunt and enjoy the music. If you dont, turn it off.
Well thank god somebody said something. This kid is a little sociopath.
Goblin selling 50k in a week means that a lot of people really could care less what people might think of OF in a negative way.
Who cares. Call me when Tegan & Sara write a good song.
*ring ring* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nisp4q-tro8
I think you miss read that. He said “good song”.
*ring ring, again* http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tegan+and+sara+living+room&aq=f
If you don’t feel ANYTHING while listening to Tegan and Sara, you clearly do not comprehend what soulful music is. Those women embed their hearts in those lyrics, and I enjoy every word. I want to be able to share my non-shitty music with my grandchildren and show them what times were like. Enjoy your Tyler, the Creator. I’ll be listening to music that’s worthwhile.
Obviously you won’t be listening to music that’s worthwhile. As the brother of a gay man and a fan of Tyler, The Creator’s, I am in no way offended. Know why? I can recognize satire when it’s presented to me.
Totally agree. People are ignorant and we aren’t going to change it, so let’s talk about something else. Not to mention that none of us will remember who the hell Tyler the Creator is ten years from now anyhow, much less this idiotic back-and-forth between himself and T&S.
What T&S are pointing out is definitely true, specially with all the hype growing around Tyler and his wolf gang, but me as an european outsider, who adores dark humour and pushing negative things to a caricatural extreme, I just can’t help “falling” for Tyler… it’s like if he ate up all of rotten america (i e the western world) and vomited it into a painting on the wall… it just makes a great effect on canvas, with all the mashed up pieces of dispair, horror, boredom, consumerism, plain human stupidity.
(speaking of which, this whole situation reminds me of an L Word episode when one of the main lesbian characters is persecuted for defending grotesque and violent art – maybe T&S should see that episode (again)!
)
That said, it is definitely dangerous to expose this grotesque canvas to all the naive kids who where not brought up in an art school and are just going to get the 1st sense of tyler’s lyrics.. but anyway it’s not the 1st time we’ve seen this in history, Jim Morrison said kill your father fuck your mother and in the end all the kids got what he meant, or if they didn’t, at least it stirred up something deep inside their guts that just needed to get out…
Vomit away Tyler let it all out!
Dude Tyler’s shit is just not that good to be likened to some kind of commentary on western culture. Come on.
western culture entire? I agree. But the “rotten” western culture, as R.Goncalves suggested–the at times disturbing violence, the homophobia, misogyny, broken families, and the undirected anger and vitriol of many of today’s youth (and minority youth more specifically)–Tyler may not sum it up all that eloquently, or in a way that is all that distinguishable from many before him, but he sums much of it up nevertheless.
This is exactly the way I feel. He isn’t the first, and won’t be the last, person to use shocking content in his music, and I think people need to not hear it in the 1st degree. And honestly, what did T&S expect. His reply made me actually laugh out loud (that term has been so diluted) and it is only when he apologises for the things he says in Goblin that it annoys me. I prefer his lyrics to rappers trying to make out how gangsta they are, Tyler’s are filled with irony and disdain for anyone who doesn’t get it.
just goes to prove he’s just a foulmouthed baby, he’ll earn my respect when he does a racist antisemitic song
He uses racial slurs in his music a lot… He puts down white and black people, and occasionally other races.
So cheers for this and why does it take fucking Tegan & Sarah to speak out against this nonsense while SG, P4K and the rest of the indie music press busies themselves with their “think pieces” (I don’t think I’ve yet read a review or write-up of Goblin that doesn’t refer to all the “think pieces” Odd Future has been generating – can’t help envisioning the send-up of Ben Fong-Torres from Almost Famous). This is not causal, look the other way type stuff. This is vile, serious, anti-social shit and there is nothing more interesting about it than that. A significant portion of the problems in this country and our public discourse can be summed up by the fact that there is anything for anyone to even “think” about here.
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Hey, don’t take this too seriously, but I hope you get raped and stabbed in the face.
- overeducated elitist liberal rich kid
See, it’s not interesting when you say things like that. I’m not sure but I think it’s because you lack charisma.
You mean I can do street installation where I throw bananas at blk ppl? You won’t get mad at me?
Thanks dood! If you wanna be a n****r in my art, hit me up!
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I really like both artists, but I have to say that Tyler, The Creator responded really poorly to the whole thing. I know that Odd Future isn’t supposed to be serious and it’s stupid of me to say that, but the least Tyler could have done was said something a little less immature, he doesn’t need to curl up and take it, but at least respond with something that shows how thoughtful he is, not just a petulant child.
Tyler knows exactly what he’s doing, he’s obviously an intelligent guy. He responded to her pretentious diatribe with the stupidest thing he could think of. He is just paying this no thought at all. Well played, Tyler wins.
Why do you assume he’s intelligent? From what I’ve observed, he could either be a smart guy pretending to be an idiot, or an idiot. I’m leaning toward the latter. Occam’s razor, and all that…
Tyler is clearly a kid trying to get a reaction out of the general public by being as outrageous and shocking as he can. Tegan and Sara are only feeding into that by getting all worked up about it. It’s not like this is a new phenom, we all knew those kids in high school who thought it was funny to use racial/homophobic/what-have-you slurs to make everyone around them gasp so they could feel like they had the ability to manipulate people’s emotions. It’s a power play, and I’m sure Tyler couldn’t have been happier to see T+S reacting the way they did.
Their point is certainly legitimate, but it’s probably time to stop thinking we can make everyone behave the way we want them to, or even pretending that there’s a universal consensus about how people SHOULD behave. Tyler likes getting a rise out of people and the general public clearly likes the alarming nature of someone like him, otherwise we wouldn’t be talking about this.
I think there bigger issue was with the media and I agree wholeheartedly. Its so frustrating to see all these highly educated writers try to find “meaning” in this 20 year old kids misogynistic/homophopic/blah/blah lyrics. Why are people trying so damn hard to turn this into some beautiful piece of art? I give Tyler credit for making a bunch of white bloggers who are trying to be cool look like idiots as they convince themselves that they “get it”.
People are allowed to say whatever they want and I completely support that right. However, that’s different than praising the content of what the person has chosen to say. The media needs to look in the mirror and ask if this was some white kid talking about raping n*****s if it would still be viewed as an artistic statement. Or even if it was some black rapper who hadn’t (inexplicably) been labeled as a child genius rapping about the same stuff. Its just baffling why Tyler gets a free pass
For you people saying Tyler’s response was good: Go make some friends. Go meet some gay or lesbian people. Go learn to treat women respectfully. Just, for the love of God, get off your computer and stop being so completely ignorant
The media may give Tyler a free pass but we give the media a free pass. By continuing to validate them by reading everything they put out, we send the message that we don’t mind having fluff news shoved down our throats. Look at the top stories today — a figurehead leader in England is visiting a country she’s never been to, a guy whose term as governor is effectively up has an illegitimate child, and the owner of a sports team is gay. It all reflects a sick obsession with the lives of others, a compulsive habit of prying into things that have no effect on our lives.
That’s what drives me crazy about this manufactured “controversy” with Tyler. He’s a kid trying to get a reaction, and it’s only that same sick obsession with other people’s business that makes us care about what he has to say at all. You can’t stamp out intolerance or hate permanently, and the people who like Tyler’s music do so in spite of the words he writes. This just isn’t a situation where you’re going to change anyone’s mind.
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I think it’s funny how the indie community has latched on to these guys. There are far better rappers and albums out today, its just that these kids shock and awe so pitchfork and u other dumbasses give them good reviews. Many of the beats and flows on the album are pretty bad actually, outside of a few good songs. I’m not going to criticize the lyrics though, just like I wouldn’t criticize the violence, misogyny, homophobic slurs, and rape found in Quentin Tarantino movies. Its entertainment, and if you don’t like it, don’t listen/watch it. Have you heard of Marylin Manson?
You can say that it’s offensive or whatever, but he wins. He’s getting notoriety up the ass, and sadly that translates into popularity. I try to take the whole thing with a grain of salt, but I understand how the Quin sisters might take issue.
I personally think his response is fucking hilarious and completely appropriate. First of all, he’s a kid. Second of all, could Tegan and Sara have picked an easier target to throw their opinion at right now than Tyler? Hip-hop has been around for 20-30 years, and so has homophobia in its music. Odd Future Wolf Gang Kill Them All is no where near the worst offender. They’re privileged kids in a nice L.A. suburb, they don’t rape or murder anyone.
Whether they were aware of it or not, they picked Tyler because he’s buzzing right now and anything with his name near it gets attention. This is why Tyler himself dismissed them in predictable fashion: why should he even argue with someone that not only probably hasn’t listened to his music, but is also trying to catch a ride on his wave?
There is no way a level-headed 30 year old woman could be offended by 17 year old kids from the suburbs joking about violence.
I also love how she notes that there is a double standard with racism and anti-semetism, where there are plenty of examples of anti-semetism and racism (even against blacks) in OFWGKTA’s music.
this whole ‘he’s a kid’ knee jerk excuse needs to stop–dude’s fucking 20 years old.
I personally think his response is fucking hilarious and completely appropriate. First of all, he’s a kid. Second of all, could Tegan and Sara have picked an easier target to throw their opinion at right now than Tyler? Hip-hop has been around for 20-30 years, and so has homophobia in its music. Odd Future Wolf Gang Kill Them All is no where near the worst offender. They’re privileged kids in a nice L.A. suburb, they don’t rape or murder anyone.
Whether they were aware of it or not, they picked Tyler because he’s buzzing right now and anything with his name near it gets attention. This is why Tyler himself dismissed them in predictable fashion: why should he even argue with someone that not only probably hasn’t listened to his music, but is also trying to catch a ride on his wave?
There is no way a level-headed 30 year old woman could be offended by 17 year old kids from the suburbs joking about violence.
I also love how she notes that there is a double standard with racism and anti-semetism, where there are plenty of examples of anti-semetism and racism (even against blacks) in OFWGKTA’s music. As said before, she clearly has not listened to any of these kids’ music (or enough to make a clear and fair judgment).
It isn’t that she’s offended by him. It’s that everybody is celebrating his music and just sort of brushing off all the rape/anti gay/etc. stuff in the process.
You assume she hasn’t listened to Goblin – have you even read her piece?
I’ve always seen it less as Tyler expressing/condoning legitimate homophobia and more as a poor taste attempt at making something interesting/frightening/exciting to listen to (or even just whatever thought pops into his head), especially as he starts to throw in “random disclaimers” into his music.
Yes, his response was incredibly immature…probably on purpose. He’s shown himself to be capable of responding to criticism in a more direct manner (listen: “Goblin”). He responds to her essay with an irrelevant joke; he doesn’t even bother to actually insult them, that’s how little he cares about this. I do wish that Tyler would take a more definitive stance against homophobia (or, hey, even take that aspect out of his music!) but this was well played.
T&G, if you don’t like it, don’t listen to it. If you don’t like that Pitchfork and Sterogum praise him, don’t read em’ anymore. If you think that Tyler’s music is not made for entertainment purposes, and you think he’s spreading homophobia why don’t you take the adult route yourself and contact the artist personally instead of starting a internet argument. And if you’re so against this type of music, why single out Tyler here and now? Have you had such tunnel vision when it comes to other music that you’ve never realized there have been many artists over the years who have had different levels of success by making music with vulgar lyrics and themes?? And that these artist use it in a way of entertainment?? If you can’t laugh at a joke, then maybe you do need to be offended more often.
Of course other artists have been homophobic/racist/hateful… in order to counteract all of those influences, you have to start somewhere. It seems to me that T&S are as frustrated with those who find racial/homophobic slurs “entertaining” as they are with the person who says them. I’m sure they’re offended quite often…there’s plenty of fodder in the media for just about anyone to get offended.
Also, the whole “don’t pay attention if you don’t like the fact that you are being marginalized” argument is completely ridiculous.
Oh NOOOOOO! The kids, the poor kids being exposed to homophobia and violence. I (like most of us all) went to middle and high school, and I heard the words ‘gay’ and ‘faggot’ thrown around as an insult more than I blinked. And since the age of twelve, when I’m lucky enough to play GTA, I run down every damn pedestrian and hooker I see. And neither of these things have turned me into a homophobe or a murderer. Kids are exposed to violence and homophobia every day, most of us aren’t worse off because of it.
“Kids are exposed to violence and homophobia every day, most of us aren’t worse off because of it.”
Except the motherf***ers that kill themselves or get killed because of it. You can go ahead and make the predictable response that “the stats that say gay kids are 3 times as likely to kill themselves are BS” or the predictable 14-year-old response that “this is proof that gay kids are pu$$ies”
You really coming with the whole “Hey, I heard someone call someone else a fa***t once, and I’m ok, so what’s that gay kid who got his ass beat every day until he got PTSD complaining about?”
I mean, do I need to break it down this way? (assuming your handle isn’t a joke) . . . Imagine . . .
– Jews are getting killed / killing themselves on a higher basis than non-Jews
– There’s tons of antisemitism around
– Jews are getting beat-on and murdered for being Jewish by mobs
– Some hip-hop group makes records about hating Jews and that the Holocaust was a good thing, the press eats them up and says they’re great
– A Jew musician says that ish is offensive and needs to stop
And where does that leave you? Exactly . . .
Get some empathy – that way you’ll actually manage to have friends and a girlfriend.
I’m not saying that some poor gay kid who gets beat up before lunch every day isn’t going to have problems, I’m just saying that fourteen-year-olds use the word ‘faggot’ multiple times a day and most (not all, most) aren’t worse off because of it. That’s why I used the qualifier ‘most’. It’s a terrible thing when someone kills themselves because they were bullied, but that’s a different situation than two kids throwing the word ‘gay’ at each other. Tyler comes into this whole mix because he uses homophobic insults, but I doubt any kid who listens to it is really going to become even the slightest bit homophobic.
And as far as the whole anti-semitism thing goes, I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t think there’s any in Goblin/any OF song… Not positive, though.
P.S. My handle isn’t ironic, it’s my actual middle name, and I’m actually Jewish.
P.P.S. I’ve got some empathy, and I do have friends. And I’ve had a few girlfriends (and a boyfriend).
OOPS! I understand the Jewish violence argument, sorry about that. I still stand by the first paragraph of my response.
Oh, and for the record, Tyler’s response was perfect.
Classic reply!! But seriously though – if a white person said this stuff they would be excommunicated from the music industry. The only reason he gets away with it is cause he’s black. I don’t care though… his calls are funny as hell.
Sara is totally right.
Stop crying guys. Although I praise Tegan & Sara’s letter for being very well-written, they are merely giving Tyler what he desires most: attention. As a relatively large OFWGKTA fan, I’ve heard my fair share of homophobic slurs and rape fantasies. However, none of these songs have changed my views on gays and rape. This is because I don’t believe Tyler takes his music seriously enough to properly defend himself and these ideas in this situation. He is merely spewing the dark thoughts that have escaped a corner of his mind. This is art. Everybody’s approval is unnecessary. Homophobia and the other ideas expressed in Tyler’s lyrics have been around since the early stages of hip hop. People are now singling out Tyler because his music generated enough shock value to actually create an impact. I’m not saying that any of these ideas are a joke, I’m just saying that Tyler does not take them as seriously in his music as Tegan & Sara argue he does. I’m not saying Tegan & Sara are wrong, I just think that they are taking Tyler’s form of art a bit too seriously, and he probably doesn’t give a shit. Every musician has critics. Kudos to Tyler for making me laugh in his response.
I feel as though Sara came off a bit pretentious and Tyler sounds like a douche.
But everything Sara said i completely agree with.
I am sorry (NOT SORRY) that, upon listening to “Goblin”, I felt alienated by the use of the word “faggot”. And fuck you all for thinking that I should lighten up.
Most people will disagree about most things nearly all of the time.
I can’t say anyone is right or anyone is wrong without something telling me I’m wrong either way.
Argue about the people we talk about for good or bad intentions but our actions and attentions are the reason these people are even talked about.
Homophobia has been around since the beginning of the universe, roughly 40,000 years ago. It was known to arise, as well, ever since man has been making music. No doubt Nagar, the first Paleolithic percussionist, wrote a ballad teasing and dismissing his friend’s homoerotic tendencies as “un-Neanderthally”. Therefore, when a twenty year old CHILD makes homophobic slurs into his rapsongs (did I mention that he is JUST nineteen years old?), we shouldn’t take ourselves so seriously and just accept it as another in a long line of “shock value” musical conceits. After all, how mature were you when you were seventeen years old? Really! Anyhow, as long as Tyler is revealing the darkest, most repugnant corners of his sixteen-year-old brain, it is ART. I, for one, desperately want to vomit into my own anus, twist myself around, and then use the clefts of my buttock as a bowl to consume my own poop-flaked vomit. Now if only I could make that rhyme. I’d be famous.
I like that you say he’s 20 (which he is), then say “did i mention, he’s only 19″, and then say, “after all, think of when you were 17,” and finally “he is revealing the corners of the 16 year old brain.” You could just keep dropping his age and say, “think of it, it’s amazing that he can rap at all considering he’s only 2 years old!”
But he’s not, he’s 20. Equivalent of a junior in college. You can’t pretend he’s just some little tyke.
I’m a gay man, and what I like about the Odd Future thing is that it’s encouraging people to discuss serious issues. If only Tegan and Sara could write music worth talking about………
Wait…. so music is only good if it’s controversial? I call bullshit. I could release a song that uses nothing but the word “faggot” over and over and that would… what? Encourage discussion? That’s not a smart way to approach it. That’s like me taking a gun into a school to encourage gun reform.
And for the record, Tegan and Sara songs are worth writing about because they’re actually enjoyable to listen to. In my opinion, of course.
He stopped way short of saying that music is only good if it’s controversial
Alex, you’re a perfect example of people taking things way to literally.
If you’re not down with Tegan and Sara, I’ve got no time for you.
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This is less an argument between pro-gay and anti-gay and more an argument between pro-Tyler and anti-Tyler…
This is pathetic….
So if this isn’t about “pro-gay and anti-gay” why the fuck would you bring up gay marriage?
If you think that 20-somethings are the only ones that have anything to do with attaining gay marriage rights, you’re mistaken. Don’t bring it up because you have no FUCKING idea what you’re talking about.
Is this the line to thank you for supporting equal marriage rights?
You completely missed the point there. I’m saying this should be more of a pro-gay vs anti-gay argument when it’s devolving into either “I like Tyler” or “I don’t like Tyler so i agree with whichever’s more convenient”….
And no, I do not believe 20 somethings are solely responsible, but it’s less taboo to us and we’re generally gonna be more accepting seeing as how we grew up with it. As more of my generation makes it into seats of power I foresee better rights for gay citizens across the nation.
Goddamn
No, Zachary, it’s not pathetic…..”Sticks and stones,” as about as ignorant and simple minded as it gets. It’s an easy phrase for you to throw around in this instance as (I’m assuming) you’re a heterosexual male. You’ve never been ridiculed or bullied for being gay or been a victim of rape (again I’m assuming). However if you end up having a gay son or your mom, sister or girlfriend/wife got raped I’m sure you won’t find a heightened sensitivity to the subject.
And all this is showing to a new generations is that this kind of language is OK, cool or even funny……..and let me tell ya Zach, it’s not.
No i have not been bullied for such things, but have and continue to be bullied for other reasons. Guess what? I got over it. I have gay family member and friends and guess what? they also got over the ridicule.
Like I’ve never even said I use those words because generally I don’t bother with them, but they’re out there and always will be. There’s nothing I or any of you can do to change that. There will always be hate in this world.
Your apathy is exactly what’s wrong with the youth today……
Well fuck you too
My apathy is what gets me through this sickening society.
Get over it, i’m tired of this.
Intelligent comeback there Zach……
“Sickening society,” what a spoiled boy you must be, uttering such words while living in America.
Come on guys. Tyler is the solution. Actually listen to it. Not every rapper means “faggot” in the same way. Zach, don’t have apathy. Have the strength to overcome it. Either way you will be unfazed but the latter leads to a better outlook. Jenaya, I think that you think you know a lot about the state of the world and the appropriate course of action that everyone should take, but I wonder how much of Tyler’s music you’ve listened to. Also you seem to have missed Zach’s point. Reread it
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LOLS. Do what you want dude, but good luck being happy.
Pulling a Tyler doesn’t make you happy. It’s funny that you claim to be apathetic when your comments are filled with such vigor and angst. Sames for Tyler.
Btw Zach, I love you. You’re my special friend
*wink wink
@Zacahry r
I really think you should look up the meaning of the “apathy” and “immaturity” again cause you’re displaying both in spades.
“There’s nothing I or any of you can do to change that. There will always be hate in this world.” is about as textbook as an apathetic statement can get.
“Well fuck you too” and “Hmmm how should i put this??? I think just i pulled a tyler on your ass.” As immaturity goes, these two statements speak from themselves.
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@Mr. Chaka
It’s completely possible and in no way abnormal to feel apathy towards certain things while feeling passionate about other things.
My qualms are not with you, but with the people trying to somehow put themselves above me without having even met. They’re hiding behind some kind of self-righteous veil because it allows them to feel comfortable with their real life “phony” selves. People are ugly and it’s often the ones riding the white horse who are dirtiest.
I don’t want to be apart of this group. I’m satisfied making them uncomfortable by shedding some realism onto their idealistic world views.
Haha keep the humor up Zach! The last thing I am is over 20 years old or a Christian. Fuck Christianity. It has the same problem that you do, namely it doesn’t affirm this life and this world. You think this world is just something we have to deal with and so do they. I wonder what’s the problem with trying to make the world a “better place” or what the problem with caring is.
The bible does make me happy because it’s one big joke and so are you.
I have no moral high ground. I’m an amoralist. You just sound bitter to me and I don’t think that needs to be the case. Either way baby, i still love you. Hit me up for some good times.
My fault Zach, I posted without seeing your next response. It’s ignorable now
Yeah I don’t know, I’m not trying to be the bad guy here and most of what I said shouldn’t be taken quite so literally. I have to admit my sense of humor is rather abnormal.
It’s just I’ve seen some disgusting things in my life, lot’s of double standards, lot’s seemingly good people doing horrible things. I don’t want to get into all of this, but I hope by now you see my point.
Let’s just go rally behind something good instead of hating on people because they listen to music with the word faggot in it. Does that make me such an awful person?
Actually Zachary R, I’m 22…….and from your posts I take it that you’re pretty much a waste of space, but you’re ok with that?
In addition, if you think “people are ugly,” then maybe you’re hanging out with the wrong kinds.
@tbp125
You’ve added nothing coherent to the conversation, yet you still try to put me down…
By the way, when I refer to these “ugly” people I am not speaking of my friends or family, but of teachers, parents, those in positions of power, those who stand for good. Do NOT get me wrong, I am not condemning everyone as there are some truly good unselfish people in this world, but they’re few and far between. Everyone has their own agenda.
No, that makes sense Zach. Sorry for all the misunderstandings there.
No problem dude!
It just makes me sad that if Sara and Tegan or even OF fans were to start some sort of charity today it wouldn’t see as much press as this issue.
It seems like we’re just dumping negativity on top of negativity…
Zach, defeatist losers like you are the reason society is the way it is today and the reason I hate my generation.
Ah, the old classic, “he’s got a gay friend so clearly he can’t be homophobic” line.
Unfortunately, Tyler was just short of accurately naming the title of his album. Goblin, while close, isn’t as succinct as Troll. Stop feeding him.
I’m semi-certain that Tyler doesn’t hate gays or wish harm upon women or condone violence, but that’s not the issue. The problem is that there is a systematic marginalization of gays and women (for example). It’s a real problem that exists and hurts many people. When a rapper casually makes gay jokes or rape jokes he/she may not mean it, but they are perpetuating the harmful language. You say ‘fag’ for example, you might not mean it, you might not even mean a gay person. But ‘fag’ is still a hurtful slur towards gay people, and by joking about it you’re making it an ok word to use. It’s not ok to use.
I agree, but this is an issue that’s been around for a long while. Why is one individual being attacked here? We’re all to blame.
I agree with this. But I’m less interested in stopping the criticism towards Tyler and more interested in talking about how we’re all to blame. It’s not necessarily fair that Tyler is getting the worst of this criticism, considering there’s all kinds of other musicians/ people guilty of this language, but he’s also not innocent.
And it’s obvious why we’re singling out this one individual. He’s the talk of the town. He’s simply very good at provocation. We all want to get our two cents in.
The crappy thing about this issue is that he’s obviously very awesome otherwise. Tons of energy and confidence and skill.
THE POINT IS that by fawning over an artist who’s whole point is being offensive and/or childish and/or whatever anyone else has used here to rationalize his language, and by not acknowledging that such language exists in his art (and addressing the ramifications of it’s use), you (the royal you) are saying that language means nothing, has no power, and that these words are evaporating into the ether. THEY AREN’T! They’re affecting people – negatively as well as positively.
No one’s saying he can’t say what he’s saying. I’d just like the people/blogs/writers to understand that when they highlight artists like this, and give them all this fucking attention (I can’t remember any other stereogum-supported album release comment thread featured on the front page of their website, can you?), it can seem that they are agreeing with everything the artist is saying.
But whatever – say whatever you want. Make whatever you want to make (sincerely) – but this isn’t as much about Tyler as it is about the people that have been holding him up on a pedestal without wondering about or questioning the meaning of his art. Because it can be construed as supporting misogyny and homophobia (and whatever any other controversial artist is bringing to the table) if you don’t acknowledge that it’s there, exists, and can be offensive.
It’s a difficult situation for Stereogum to be in actually. On the one hand, it does seem like they are praising this guy’s music without adequately addressing how problematic his lyrics are (putting him ‘on a pedestal’). On the other hand, Tyler is news and they have to write about him. This is especially true because they are a blog and so they let people (like you) voice your opinion. It’s important for Stereogum to post about Tyler precisely so that you can talk about how offensive his lyrics are.
Still, I don’t know about other publications like Pitchfork. They’re not a blog, and their features and reviews (not necessarily their news) are definitely crowning Tyler the Creator. I think that P-fork is assuming their readership will see beyond the offensiveness or be thoughtful about how problematic it is, and so they’re don’t feel a need to address it that much. Maybe they see it as a ‘preaching to the choir’-type situation if they address it in a review or feature. But I think that’s kind of a reckless thing for P-fork to do. It should be addressed.
Yes, it can be and often is offensive, but in this day and age what isn’t offensive?
And I wasn’t trying to say these words are just evaporating away, they’re changing and there’s nothing we as individuals can do to stop it. Remember the old definition of gay? How often is that still used?
I’m trying to be as sincere as possible here and I mean no disrespect, but this is just the way the world is. Some people need to grow a spine, it’s tough out there.
ughhh I don’t know, I’m just trying to see this from all sides and someones always gotta lose. Life just ain’t fair and human nature’s generally ugly
Because that artist is being praised and celebrated. And those sort of things SHOULD NOT be praised and celebrated. To Sara, and all other feminists, rape jokes are NOT funny. She’s merely speaking out and staying true to her beliefs, ideals, and principles. She’s a feminist and gay/lesbian hero to many. This is what she does.
To suggest, it’s been “around for a long time” is bullshit. So has war, does that mean we shouldn’t speak out when it breaks out? Racism has been around for a long time and yes, it has gotten better. People are less racist.
Whether Tyler really is a homophobe or not, is not the issue here. The issue is that he purposely sounds homophobic for shock value and thinks it’s funny. It shouldn’t be. And people are applauding him for it, and it’s kinda fucked up. He’s obviously a smart guy- well, I can’t say that. He’s not ignorant- wait? He’s getting attention and fame by rapping about the lowest grade human behavior. He’s not doing it for the sake of art. He’s not a fucking surrealist. He’s not an absurdist. He’s just a bored man trapped in an immature kid’s body acting out for attention and he’s getting it. Tyler wins. Stupidity and ignorance triumphs.
Perfectly said. Not only is it not art, it’s poorly written crap. Begging for attention. I don’t laugh at songs about raping and cutting up women, etc… And the little bitchasspunk that TtC is had anything worthwhile to say in his music, he would. He doesn’t though. Tyler, I got the hard d**k for you, but nah I’d never waste it on your punkbitchass.
He’s a bitchass punk, yet you’re calling him out in a comment board? Ok….
I think the point that a lot of people are missing about Tyler, and Odd Future in general, is that their work is largely satirical. I am bisexual and I AM offended by the use of the word faggot as a substitute for ‘dumb’ or ‘stupid’. However, in the context of Tyler’s songs I am not at all offended. And I feel that it actually contributes to the meaning of the album as a whole to use such offensive language and joke about very serious social issues such as misogyny and rape. Why? Because its satire. He makes it very clear that he doesn’t actually have anything against gays or women. He satirically represents what is wrong with our society, and I believe he does this purposely. There are obviously parts of the album where he is joking, at times his words are meant to be a joke, and yet there are moments where he is venting about the pain in his own personal life. There is a line between the two and it is often blurry, but to take what he says seriously is foolish and narrow sighted. Comedians do this all of the time and yet they do not provoke this same negative response.
Comedians are better at it. And I get that it’s his art, so I don’t listen. I TRIED to listen, but as I mentioned previously, I felt alienated by the use of the word “faggot”. I even liked Yonkers, which uses it once, but as I listened to the rest of the album, it got hard to continue.
And okay, so you’re bi and not offended. I’m gay and I am. Sexual orientation actually doesn’t matter – you can be offended if you aren’t under the LGBTQ umbrella as well.
I really don’t like people telling me not to be offended by whatever. Do not deny me my feelings.
“Comedians are better at it” great argument. Tyler doesn’t deserve a shot at social commentary? He doesn’t deserve the same rights as comedians? He doesn’t deserve equal rights?
Sometimes I think that parodies shouldn’t just be comedic which seems to be what you’re saying when you claim that comedians are better at it. The scary parody that Tyler presents can have an even greater impact…except when everyone misinterprets it.
Why do you feel offended? He’s not a homophobe. His use of the word makes a statement about the word. He should be praised for his work for gay rights. Why doesn’t anyone listen to him?
ferns is allowed to be offended. Just saying, “hey, it’s satire” doesn’t simply excuse everything.
Agreed. But that tweet was a little much, I think.
He’s saying faggot because Eminem said faggot. He is a rip off.
He has his moments, but he needs to find his own shtick.
I tell you what, I could care less about the whole offensive v. not offensive conversation going on here.
1.) I do care about the double standards, where we don’t see such an equal-weighted dialogue going on when races or religions are discussed in the manner that OFWGKTA discusses women and gays
2.) I do care about the fact that people actually care about this bullshit forgettable music when a lot of really talented up-and-coming artists will never reach our ears (particularly, as someone who uses this blog to discover new music)
3.) I do care about the “let kids be kids” defense. He is 20, and he actively thrust himself into the publicsphere. He’s not a “kid” anymore, whether or not he wants to be and act like one (see also: Rebecca Black)
I’m not sure what sets Tyler apart from something like South Park. When the show started out, it was incredibly controversial- people dismissed it as crude and offensive because of the surface content of the jokes. As time went on and the shock value wore off, people began to realize that Matt Stone and Trey Parker were actually brilliant social commentators who sent out a message by getting as in-your-face about it as possible. I think what Tyler is doing is incredibly similar. Look no further than this video he posted on youtube a couple of years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agpnxd-ajLA&feature=channel_video_title
He uses crude gay sex jokes to emphasize his opinion that gay marriage should be LEGALIZED. On Goblin, we hear him telling himself to not say “faggot” since people will be offended by it. He says “I’m not homophobic…faggot.” This is the same thing as the joke he makes in the youtube video, but people are too quick to let the crudeness of his humor get in the way of understanding him. A large part of Goblin is Tyler worrying that people are taking these sorts of jokes too seriously, and Sara’s letter clearly shows what he’s worried about. I think his response to her, while childish and not really funny at all was sort of his way of saying “you don’t get it.”
Or maybe he’s just an asshole and I’m reading way too much into it, but listening to the title tracks off of Goblin and Bastard, I can’t help but think there’s a lot more to his words than people realize.
I think most people are over-intellectualizing, and deconstructing his content a bit too deeply. And that in and of itself is pretty fascinating. Are you feeling guilty and this is your way of rationalizing your like for him? Every interview I’ve seen where he defends his critics he seems to bring up Tarantino and how when Tarantino does it, nobody cares. Then he plays the race card. He doesn’t really seem that intelligent. He can defend himself, that’s all. And it’s usually something like, “I’m not really a killer/rapist/homophobe, you idiots.” And that will always work. In some ways, he’s bringing to light all of the ‘keep it real-ism’ of hip-hop’s past and challenging the silliness of it all. And I think that’s my major gripe with his content. It just seems too try-hard and he’s not “real” and even I know that’s stoooopid. Yeah yeah, I’m a hater, fuck me.
At least his beats are still weak. Him being 17, or whatever-the-fuck, when he made them doesn’t save them from being wack. That’s just fanboy apologist bullshit. And boy are their a ton of them.
Laugh out loud at this comment.
You sure you’re not just making him out to be more shallow than he really is?
Does it make you feel better about yourself?
Yeah…
but that “Earl” track is still pretty dope.
people dont understand that tyler the creator is just putting out his dark thoughts and exploring the id. i mean i rather hear ” Goblin” then the wack pop club shit they call hip hop these days. if you listen to analog or girl you ll see tyler has a sensitive side and realize that half the shit he’s saying is shit he’s not serious about. odd future is just bringing back this original swag that was seen back when hip hop was great. so fuck off!
I’m sensitive too. My mother loves it when I tell her “I love you, cunt.”
But really, the rest of Odd Future are pretty mediocre MCs. Curren$y and even Wiz Khalifa are better stoner rappers than Hodgy and MellowHype. If Odd Future came out when hip-hop was great they’d be laughed off the planet, called little rich kids, shamed into silence, and told to quit frontin’ and get back on their skateboard and get the fuck on back to the suburbs. Back when hip-hop was great, 92-96, you had to be “real,” as ridiculous and antiquated as the term “keep it real” might be, it held some weight. You couldn’t just talk about it, you had to fucking be about it. Even Tyler laughs at the term “real hip-hop” or “underground rap” Back when hip-hop was great no MC could go around talking about “Fuck the black community” without facing some ridicule. So don’t give me this shit about O.G. swag when OFWGKTA are a bunch of bored well-to-do middle-class black skater kids with ADD doing shit for shits and giggles.
And as fucked up as it may seem now, socio-economic status actually meant something back in the days. Think about the best rappers ever; how many of them are from the suburbs? Yeah, not many. So don’t go around talking about “when hip-hop was great” if you don’t actually know shit about it. Let them go to Leimert Park in South Central L.A. on a Thursday night and see how hip-hop they are. Look it up.
Everyone writing things off as “entertainment,” regardless of how things are intended they have an affect on what the public does and thinks. Not saying that Tyler’s fan’s aren’t smart enough to understand he might be joking and just having fun, but as T&S’s essay shows, some people take him seriously. I sort of agree with T&S (and his response isn’t funny despite it being totally in character), but on the flip side Tyler calls himself a “faggot” on a couple OF tracks, so there you go I guess.
Odd Future will never top Back in Your Head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OoZNENl0Cg he does say some interesting stuff here. i don’t know that he intently points out gays or whatever though he does like the topic of raping women. he does say faggot a lot but it seems more like how every teen around uses it as slang. i think this is what he wants. more publicity. more rise. more fame. there are bigger and more important things but being involved with music myself the only drawback i see is that his fans are maybe split in half. either dumb people who just advocate hate and destruction who will take it as a negative wave blah bleh blah & mainly the indie scene where kids are just like wtf is going on, this guy is crazy. and it does take you by surprise. it does grab you. im just kind of surprised it spread like wildfire. thats hard to do now days. when earl sweatshirt (tylers amigo) returns i think their next batch of songs will take a turn for the better. I used to think tylers weakness was his need to defend himself like him giving shout outs saying fuck this fuck that, when really, if he didn’t care he wouldn’t be giving shout outs. i could say his response was expected. being a fan of both groups i can say when all is said and done. just relax and realize that you are talking about kids who made it from nothing to pretty much everything. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KoIYwcmIuU&feature=related
I wonder how much of Goblin Sara has actually listened to. It just seems like none of the haters have actually listening to him in depth or tried to decipher the lyrics. He’s obviously not a homophobe and I think that if people could interpret it correctly Goblin would do much more for gay rights then anything Tegan ^ Sara have ever done.
Tyler says controversial things.
People complain about controversial things.
What else is he supposed to do except say more controversial things?
OF defenders should not be saying ‘it is just entertainment’, they should be saying ‘the slurs, swear words, and imagery are inherent to the message’. Gruesome films would not be gruesome if not for gruesome content, and yet, people cannot grasp that about music. It is weird. Some of the same people respecting Jackson Pollock, Bernardo Bertolucci, Banksy, Elvis, and the Clash for defying society’s rules are critiquing Tyler the Creator. It is pretty silly imo.
Look up GG Allin. That was a man who really rubbed it in people’s face and lived it. And he was no doubt certifiably insane, or at least hopelessly addicted, yet also thoughtful, and terrifying. It was not pretty. And he made sure you knew it. Fuck all of this clowning throwing around hateful words. It is ignorant. Hate is ugly. When it’s vomited out for a legitimate reason, it is powerful, but when sprayed like napalm at anything that moves, going for the lowest common denominator, it is a pathetic attention grab. Tyler has simply copped Eminem’s career trajectory and is replaying it, yet he isn’t remotely as articulate or talented with a story. When’s the homophobia erasing duet coming, so the audience can publicly forgive him? And why Bill O’Reilly? How 2005. Read the fucking news Tyler. How about Michelle Bachmann? I’m just saying, it’s a lame reference, everyone knows O’ Reilly’s gone “soft”. These kids are doing something original, and that’s great, but Earl’s got the right idea sitting out this bottom feeding fiasco. Wu Tang comparisons are way off too. Those guys were grounded in a dense mythology of their own creation, yet also brought listeners into their world of both fantasy and the ins and outs of life in SI.
Oh well. Why do I care?
It’s interesting that you bring up G.G. Allin, a quote from his naked drummer Deano is perfectly relevant. “An extremely outrageous and beautiful person, likes to have fun no holds barred, no limits, if it was up to him, he would do anything he could, and that includes everything, to make himself and others laugh, and he’s also a serious social comment on the problems of violence in the human race. See, there’s far to much violence, not enough sweetness and that’s basically, if you ask me, what his whole act centres on.”
That’s a great quote- you can see that in some of what Allin said in interviews- although he was a consummate showman as well. Although his shows of course were violent and abject, he often said how everyone chose to be there, which is similar to Tyler in that it’s a kind of “you get it or you don’t” thing. My point about GG was that it was actions and seeing all that blood flying and all the trouble GG ended up getting in really did make a statement about horror and violence that throwing around stock fantasies doesn’t. Basically, it wasn’t a joke. GG knew horror and violence. Born Jesus Christ and told he was the second coming, how could the guy not have some serious issues.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8fTaHmSJSI
taking this way to seriou8s
First off, I’m a huge T&S fan.
Since Syd the Kyd, an openly gay female, is a member of Odd Future, don’t you feel this argument is silly?
Do you love Dexter? Did you love Lecter in Silence of the Lambs? Tyler has said over and over again that “Wolf Haley” is his serial killer alter-ego. I can’t believe anyone, who considers themselves literate, can’t see what’s going on.
You want some real treating-women-like-an-object type stuff, go read Keroauc.
Geez….you’re really spending time worrying about this? Really?
I’m glad she spoke up and I respect everything she said, but it doesn’t mean that Tyler needs to change who he is or what he says. People can say whatever they want, I’m pretty sure that right is given to us by the people who founded this country. But yes, I did think it was lame that no one has the balls to criticize him. It’s the media’s responsibility to choose whether or not comment on it, which it will if Tyler reaches the level of exposure that Eminem did. IF he reaches that …
Goblin is art in the same way that Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds’ Murder Ballads or Brett Easton Ellis’s Less Than Zero are and to deny it such a status, could reasonably be seen as racism. -The Quietus
As a black gay man i Fucking LOVE this album!!! I dont find it offensive at all because they are fucking WORDS. My grandfather once told me that someone calling you a nigger doesn’t make them a racist, but someone thinking or treating you like you are a nigger does make them a racist. Words are words. Im glad someone brought up silence of the lambs and Keroauc. I cant believe that in 2011 we are having the same argument about art that people had in 1785 about the Marquis de Sade. Im not a certaintly not a conservative but i am also no longer a liberal because of bullshit like Tegan and Sara who want to be able to be whoever they want and make the art that they want but want to make others stop making art they dont agree with. Such a double standard!!
You are awesome…just saying.
LOL. Thanks if of course you were talking to me. It just pisses me off when people try to censor other peoples art in any way!
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^ This, None of the people offended by the music actually no anything about the people in the group making it… Their basing all their opinions on his lyrics and saying that he himself is racist. Yeah his music speaks out and he speaks his mind because he doesnt care what people think, but unless you have actually heard him talk about his music and all the deeper stuff behind the music your not in a position to call him out when he acts nothing like his lyrics.
Good post. How are the actions and views in these songs any different than a villain in a movie doing this same stuff? Odd Future are the villains. His response is pretty genius.
*Yawn*
The fact that he is offensive is indisputable. Tyler says awful fucked up shit. That has been established. What should be examined is what he does with that, and why he does it, and what (if anything) is accomplished by it.
I get why some people can’t listen to Tyler, it’s hard to. The barrier of violence and rape that a listener has to move past/climb over is a big one. I understand if people can’t get past it. That being said, covering one’s ears and saying “this is offensive THEREFORE it is bad and not worth examining” is the wrong response.
*Yawn*
The fact that you think there is such a thing as indisputably offensive art is the problem especially when you go around parading opinions as facts. People are not Monolithic. My mother finds “Silence of the Lambs” to be “indisputably offensive” because of things like them SHOWING skin suits made of women (something that tyler the creator only talks about on the album) yet it won the oscar for best picture. My real problem with this whole issue is that people have to realize that part of living in a truly free society means that in order for you to be allowed to be you, you have to allow everyone else to be who they are no matter how abhorrent you find them as long as they are not hurting anyone. There are people who find black gay men like myself indisputably offensive and they are allowed to think that!
You completely mis-read what I’m trying to say Clifton. COMPLETELY. I agree with you (except for the not thinking its offensive, is that what you are implying?)
What I’m trying to say is that it doesn’t matter if what he is rapping about is offensive but rather WHY he is doing it and HOW he does it and WHAT it does for the art/listener. If you don’t think it’s offensive, fine, that’s weird. I think what he raps about is awful and disgusting and wrong (rape, duh), BUT still am a huge fan because I think he is using violence and hate in a unique way. I think the focus should be on looking PAST the fact that the content is a-moral (not to you?) and looking at how its used. Much like how the academy looked past the disgusting violence in the movie you mentioned and saw the ART in it, in its story telling. We should do the same in examining Tyler.
Hate is a powerful and intense emotion. To try and force it out of the world of music is ludicrous. To come out against hate may seem moral, but it is so short sighted and self-righteous as to make your protest into applause.
There are no repercussions worst for Tyler but to be ignored. The amount of attention his homophobia is bringing him overshadows the fact that the album is really not that great.
Fuck, who cares. everyone thinks they’re so intuitive but we’re all just wasting our time replying.
I’m a fan of both entities. In fact, I’d say that on the whole, I’m a bigger fan of T&S. But seriously? Shut the fuck up, ladies. Nobody complains about you singing lesbian love songs. You do your thing, Tyler will do his.
I’m sorry, I hate to sound like a condescending douchebag, but… Sara Quin clearly does not get it. As Tyler himself said “…Listen deeper to the music before you put it in a box”. It is hard to explain how/why Tyler uses such vehement language in his music – it is something that must be heard to be understood. Yes, he cusses and uses racial slurs, but he doesn’t do it in a way intended to offend. He, however, also doesnt use it in a satirical way. When you listen to Tyler’s music, you’re listening to ALL of Tyler’s emotions and thoughts. He uses slurs to describe everyone – be it gays, blacks, women, himself, his family… etc. I’m not quite sure I elucidated as to what his intentions are, and you’ll have to trust me when I say that in order to understand and enjoy Tyler’s music, you have to actually give it a good listen – listening to Goblin once doesn’t count.
By the way, no one is forced to listen to Tyler. If you do, and you enjoy it, that is your right. Opinions and feelings vary greatly from person to person. Critics such as Pitchfork and Stereogum have every right to say exactly how they feel about Tyler’s music. They should not be influenced by Tegan & Sara’s feelings on Tyler.
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Coming on a blog and posting that it’s a waste of time to post on said blog is moronic in itself. I’ll let someone far more intelligent that myself respond to your “read only newspapers” statement:
“The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
–Thomas Jefferson
truth!
I don’t think the problem is that he gets congratulated for his offensiveness. I think the problem is that he’s congratulated for his stupidity, which happens to be his prevailing characteristic.
If you’re going to spread a message or speak your mind as an artist, you should probably strive towards having the mental agility to not sound like a fucking idiot doing it.
I don’t morally object to Tyler or what he has to say, but I do find anyone who actually enjoys his music to be intellectually challenged.
bitter dykes be jealous
I just youtubed this tyler guy and his music is literally the worst thing I have ever heard in my entire life I would rather eat a bucket of shit than listen to another “song” by this dick wad
i don’t know about any of this, but i sure am glad magnum ice cream bars are available in the US now. that’s all that really matters. right?
Tyler is the black metal of rap. Hes trolling everybody right now, I love watching this happen.
I feel like hes making a lot of interesting points in his music. Does that mean calling people “fags” is ok? No I guess not, who the fuck cares, why is the word “fag” still a fucking issue? Its in one ear and out the other. Its only a big deal if you let become a big deal. Its just a fucking word. “AWW BUT IT MEANZ YOU HATES GAYZ AND DYKEZ IF YOU SAY DAT”. Ok I get it, get over it. Just a fucking word, stop acting offended. I think theres bigger things to worry about then a simple word. Kids growing up in shitty living conditions because their parents were horny and selfish, just one example.
“Parents want to blame me all because their kid is fucking up, but FUCK that, You’re a shitty parent, face it, suck it up, thats what you should’ve did before that nigga bust…”
I love Tegan and Sara, but they got trolled deep. THIS IS EXPOSURE! He owned them with his response. Is his message hateful? I litterly just started listening to his music after reading this thread, and I think this is music for the new generation. Its taking things the extreme and making fun of it. I could easily see this guy on 4chan taking shit, this is youth culture. Am I defending any of this?? Yes, this is free speech. Deal with it. How about you shut the fuck up? No don’t, you have free speech too.
Beyond race, beyond sexual preference, beyond gender, he pretty much covers the darkest of everything and throws it in your face. He doesn’t JUST rap about raping girls and “fags”, he talks about boys being molested, priests and michael jackson, consumerism, school shootings, being black, living in a broken home environment, being young and not taken seriously, speaking his mind and not apologizing for it. And he makes it known in pretty much every song that hes just fucking around, he even starts one song with a full disclosure…
“Random DISCLAIMER: Hey! Don’t do anything I say in this song, ok? Its fucking fiction. If anything happens, don’t fucking blame me white america. Fuck bill orielly.”
I don’t think this is hate rhetoric, I think it may be misinterpreted by people looking for an excuse to complain.
A-friggin-men. What gets overlooked in a lot of this uproar as well, is that Goblin might have just come and gone to the fans of the Odd Future crew, and never gotten such mass media for free. Instead, Tegan and Sara single out the album, post an attack of their own on Tyler’s work, and HELP his sales climb. Way to go, ladies.
My question is how come Tegan and Sara never spoke out against ICP and their “family”. Or some of the other acts out there that are actually pro-hate preaching a course of violence and brutality against the LBGT community, as well as minority groups. Or is it easier to go after the kid from LA?
Uhh, maybe because ICP didn’t have a shitload of magazine covers and hand-wringing essays defending them
Epic and on point. I don’t think the older members of this generation are ready for what the younger members are going to bring to the table. Ten minutes on 4chan will either make you go “ahh, I get what’s going on now” or it will make you instantly age 40 years and hate everyone younger than you; It seems like a lot of people are starting the latter.
I would bet London to a brick that there are white people propping up Tyler The Creator. His agent is probably white, the people who signed him are probably white…you get the picture. White people often project their hatred of gay people through black people. This occurs because black people are a protected species who can’t be challenged for things that white people are challenged on.
Tyler needs to quit hiding behind his black color. Oh, and if what he’s doing is artistic, then I suppose Hitler rounding up the Jews was artistic too.
Godwin’s Law
Man, that took a lot longer than I would have expected.
Well, you know, I’d like to write a song called “Blacks have skin that is the color of shit”. But, you know, I’m only being artistic, you know.
I’ve just come up with a great lyric for a song:
Black people look like poo,
Black people should be enslaved,
Let’s make them work day and night,
Including Mama Jama
Now, now, don’t get angry with me. I’m simply being satirical. Can’t you see the humor in it? I’m an artist, after all. How dare you question an artist. Artist, do you hear? That’s what I am – an artist, dammit.
I for one would have no problem with you making that song cause its your Fucking right. I would maybe just not listen to it because the lyrics are rather clunky and that would be my right! You people on here sound like those crazy Christians that get all in an uproar over things like “Piss Christ” and oh yeah Gay people. When you start to sound like them in questions of art i think there is a problem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OoZNENl0Cg&feature=player_embedded#at=140
This is a great video describing where he’s coming from and what he’s about. I guess a lot of you will still have an issue with how often he swears and how violent his lyrics are but keep in mind that he’s not the shallow nutcase T&S make him out to be.
And I think that’s where his twitter response comes from. He’s just playing to T&S idea of him because ultimately the critics and his fans know what he’s about; which I presume is all he cares about.
Jay-Z wrote a book (or some sort of article) in which he addressed where a lot of his lyrics were coming from and in it he addressed the use of the word “Bitch” in the chorus for “99 Problems.” He said something to the effect that he so blatantly throws the word in there to weed out all of the people who would be coming to his music with the belief that it was misogynistic and offensive to begin with. It was sort of a case of showing that even on a song with a deep, thoughtful social commentary, if he threw “Bitch” onto the chorus, all the detractors would instantly gravitate towards that and say ‘Look at Jay-Z and all his rapper friends just talking about “Bitches” and “Hoes”.’
I think that’s sort of what Tyler is doing.
I’d liken Tyler’s response to T+S like this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eat-the-press/2006/12/07/the-cover-was-a-mistake_e_35808.html
The world has plenty of angst ridden, angry youth like Tyler. He’s identified that things make him nervous, scared, unhappy and depressed. I feel for the guy but I’m curious if he’s going to use this platform he’s created for himself to just be an incredibly offensive goofball or actual confront his reality. If Tyler is going to excuse his music as “his art” then I don’t think it’s too much to ask for him to articulate what is art about it, why he’s writing rape and murder fantasies, why he needs to use words that are extremely hurtful to other people.
Instead we get quotes like this: “The black community’s already fucked up… don’t gimme no shit like that… I hate jerkers but I kinda feel for em… I still hate that shit… but I don’t like shit like that… black community what the fuck this ain’t a Tyler Perry movie n*****… fuck that shit.”
Point taken… but that’s it? This is the best you can do to articulate and comment on what you see? Seriously, and to the people who are saying he’s just being a kid… James Baldwin started writing short stories and essays that would become “Notes of a Native Son” when he was 17.
It just amazes me how quickly a generation of people raised on (and used to defending) Bret Easton Ellis and Quentin Tarantino can so quickly forget that fictional narratives exploring the darker elements of humanity can be applied to music as well. It’s also kind of incredible how quickly the “indie” movement (make of that phrase what you will, personally I hate it but I use it to describe the Stereogum status quo) has already moved into the role of “lecturing/disappointed older sibling.” How many times has this happened in music? Like Frank Sinatra talking shit about hippies and then hippies talking shit about new wave and new wave talking shit about grunge, all I’m seeing is artists and fans painting an overblown and unnecessarily dramatic picture that the entire socio-entertainment fabric of their cultural contribution has somehow been negated by a movement that is different than theirs. It’s like the prevailing trends in music can’t handle when something new comes along, so instead of just saying “we don’t like that” they find an almost moral reason to denounce it.
On a more specific level, I’m seeing an almost purposefully ignorant view of what OFWGKTA actually is. OF has never claimed to be serious. Check out their Tumblr, check out any of the more serious interviews Tyler or any other member has made, and a theme that is PAINFULLY clear is to not take anything seriously. Tyler has specifically addressed these issues many times in the past. To quote him directly, “it’s fucking FICTION.” It’s not his fault if you’re too ignorant or predisposed to hate them to see that.
If Tron Cat & Friends were truly serious in their lyrics and intentions, then I’d understand being concerned. But they’re not. Sure you could make the argument that someone could misinterpret intent and think this behavior is glorified…but I can guarantee someone said that about the music you like at one point. It’s astounding and profoundly sad that a community of people who profess a love for music “independent” of the mainstream would choose to lash out at this instead of being intrigued and thinking “hmm this could be interesting, let’s see where this goes.”
You win the internet. Especially with the Easton Ellis comparison. He wrote Less Than Zero at what, 20? 21? And would people characterize that book as promoting rape given how it ends?
For an even more extreme (and closer comparison to Tyler), look at an author like Jack Ketchum. Dude isn’t promoting rape when he writes about it; in fact, he’s often villifying it in his narratives. But people get squeamish any time an extreme subject is discussed in a detached manner that isn’t automatically condemning the act. Just because someone is writing about rape in the first-person perspective of a rapist, it doesn’t automatically mean they’re promoting that viewpoint.
Richard Wright wasn’t promoting rape in “Native Son” but it didn’t stop his contemporaries (Ellison, Baldwin) from criticizing the work.
I love your response. I don’t even listen to any of the Odd Future gangs music but when I read T&S appeal to race and class as reasons why this boy should and shouldn’t say things, i immediately had to take sides.
This is nowhere as cool as this:
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/04/ice_t_teaches_aimee_mann_an_im.html
you guys are gay
So why does ITunes not have any Prince Paul swag or gnarl blue ray editions of Kids? Not saying dude’s horrorcore, because I’d never say gay shit like that .
…but seriously why doesn’t ITunes have A Prince Among Thieves?
welcome to weapon world.
T & S… where are your letters to to the writers/producers of south park & family guy ??? is it because they’re written & produced by white dudes?
the funny thing about this “IT’S A CHARACTER TYLER’S GOT, JEEZ, YOU HYPOCRITICAL PUBLICK!” he doesn’t have any other character as a foil! Quentin Tarantino has Butch in “Pulp Fiction” and Samuel L. Jackson acting as SEMI-good guys or guys with some conscience that conflicts with their environment. South Park has Stan as the “good guy.” so don’t pull that. Tyler has none of that shit. rappers are already homophobic, violent: why do we need a skinny kid in tube socks and second hand 80s clothes to remind us that every rapper with a white audience has lyrics as obvious as his? we don’t need it, Stereogum and Pitchfork. he’s not a genius. he plays the race card whenever anyone criticizes him, he pulls up bullshit rationalizations that try to show how we’re all hypocritical. Tyler feels massively entitled and he’s a bullshitter who plays the race card, like Kanye. if he wanted people to know he was “in character” like a real professional, he’d set up a protagonist in his music, but he’s too much of a coward to be real. he’s a skinny, spoiled brat with a therapist: not a gang banger. he has no tattoos, and he’s still acting hard ? i’d rather listen to a rapper who might get killed ’cause his rhymes are so controversial on the streets, not a rapper who might get an 8.0 on Pitchfork ’cause his rhymes ain’t real enough. there’s a reason Detroit turned on him: ’cause he’s the real hypocrite here. Man up, Tyler. you’re the real coward, if that wasn’t obvious enough, projecting all your insecurities. you and all your fruity fans need to get real. GOBLIN and all your 6th grade word-play gimmicks, gimme a break. it’s all been done before.
i don’t even care. i’m just sick of the amount of energy and time devoted to this group. get back to discovering some musicians, stereogum. too much time is being wasted on Odd Future.
Both his albums revolve around him talking to his school guidance counselor/therapist, which you acknowledge, so I don’t know how you can even make this argument since there clearly is a foil to Tyler’s dark personality.
A few things.
1. “he he has no tattoos, and he’s still acting hard ?” I’ll let that statement speak for itself I guess. Nevermind: basically, you’re dumb.
2. “you and all your fruity fans need to get real.” This is funny because here we dip into something closer to actual homophobia, where someone is using a slur to try to achieve legitimate insult. This is the kind of stuff that we should be rallying against, not some 20 year old kid’s fucked art project.
3. “i don’t even care.” you’re such a badass
It’s called transgressive fiction, and it has long history predating Tyler. The point of it? Making characters that are traditionally written as antagonists the protagonist. Ever seen the movie A Clockwork Orange? There are no “semi-good guys” in there, anywhere. The lead character, Alex DeLarge, doesn’t have a character arc wherein he decides what he did was wrong; to the contrary, he’s exactly the same kind of sociopath he was in the beginning, and maybe even worse off because of people’s attempts to cure him. American Psycho? The lead is a narcissitic, self-hating yuppie who may (or may not) be a serial killer in his free time. He goes unpunished.
So yeah, your idea is slightly flawed there. And I don’t see how his upbringing dictates what he can and can’t write about it.
I like how everyone on these sites acts like they are so fucking perfect and never once in their life said or thought about anything offensive to homosexuals and other races. None of you ever thought about having freaky sex and taking complete advantage of someone. Get a grip. I’m not saying Tyler is the most original out there, but he succeeds with his concept. Tyler represents the evil inside everyone. There’s a reason people hate homosexuals, theres a reason porn exists, theres a reason racism exists, it comes from all of you.
My vote for “Best Reply of the Year”.
I love this.
Thinking it is one thing. Rising to national (internet?) prominence based on saying offensive shit and having every critic jerk you off over some occasionally original music is another.
We have thoroughly beat this dead horse……….and are now swimming in glue
I was ready to give Tyler the benefit of the doubt, but after that tweet….done. Unfollowed on Twiiter. I will however still listen to their music but I will illegally download that shit.
I find this rather humorous. In the end Tyler is not going to care about their opinions..their “efforts” he’s worried about things of bigger importance to him. It’s the same deal with he whole B.O.B. conflict…where B.O.B. try to respond and he looked foolish knowing Tyler had already moved on from it…Seriously Tyler at 20 has single handedly created and elevated this far. He deff has a story in his music (“Inglorious, Golden, Goblin, Parade”) if people actually did their research and came up with a valid answer as to why shit on Tyler..I’m respecting people’s opinion seriously…but I respect Tyler he has talent everything he has done is singlehandedly the marketing, production and everything. It is art, just like people don’t like a certain dish or speak a language…this music is not going to speak to you if you really don’t have a chance to get it…and it’s not going to speak for 90 of people here and that’s fine….but all im basically saying is c’mon people its art, its music, you don’t like it sadly no one is going to care. I’m done. That’s all.
Playa to playa, pimp to pimp
You are participating in diversion. Grow up. Kill the cop in your head. Tyler has carte blanche. He’s an artist, and a teenager @ that. Take responsibility for your personal beliefs by making conscientious choices. Circle “D” not enough information. You don’t know what you’re talking about. if you did you’d be raking in 50k in first week sales. Tyler is the harbinger of the ’11 marketplace! Nothing more. If you see OFTWG coming put your daughter in a noose. Swagnostic#
The new don’t say “gay” commercials are completely unfair to struggling homophobes. It may possibly drive them over the edge to commit hate crimes or kill themselves. It’s projective identification by the homosensual community. Woody from toy story is going to be starring in the John Waters screenplay of “A thief’s journal”.
I am a feminist and a women, But I hate that it all have to be so fucking PC, i love tyler he´s assome, something new and exiting on a scene like hiphop where mostly everything sounds the same. ofwkta is the new Wu tang,
Tyler’s controversy has certainly given him a career…and this entire string of comments is re-enforcing it. I’m not commenting on Tyler and how I feel about him but Fred Phelps does the same shit and it works.
Maybe its just me, because I’m so desensitized to language, but I think his overuse of words like faggot and the Juxtaposition of talking about sucking dick about a million times are good things.
I think the majority of humans on this planet are still quite racist in some way, but the majority of youth, especially these days, are more color blind than any generation. Which only makes sense, I’d hope any species would evolve in this way because as people of all races and religions mix more and more we inherently lose a lot of racism in each subsequent generation. Hopefully in a hundred years racism will be a thing of the past. But, until that time comes there will always be people overly sensitive to words that only have power over their emotions because they let them.
Also, the more curse words are used the less of an impact they have and more acceptable they are to say in public. Everyone curses now, it’s on TV, radio, and the internet is fucking loaded with bad words. The more an artist uses words he grew up hearing I think they lose their ability to offend after a while.
So, my opinion is that all racists and homophobes should be forced to listen to this album and other like it so as to remove the power behind words they think are so wrong and realize that entertainment can change opinions subtly without people even knowing it.
First off, if you’ve never listened to Bastard or any other OF record, don’t make overarching judgments of Tyler’s character. The whole point of Goblin (i.e. “Wolf Haley”) is set up in Bastard.
Second, this is a narrative, not a biography. Taking homophobic and misogynistic verses out of context has the same effect as taking scenes of American Psycho, Cannibal Holocaust, A Serbian Film, Antichrist, etc. out of context. Why is Bastard or Goblin any different than these movies? Because it’s a black kid from LA who’s saying them? I hope not. Believe it or not, he does have reasons for why he’s saying this. If you watched legitimate interviews with him you would realize this.
All of this being said, is he a savior of rap music? No. There are plenty of better rappers. But to strip him of any artistic merit, as you all seem to be doing, is just as ridiculous. He’s a kid who found himself making a damn good story with Bastard, probably the best identity creation I’ve seen since Operation: Doomsday.
I just ask that you learn about Odd Future before you make such broad judgments about them. Their entire collective is meant to be a rejection of current rap (and they’ve bashed a lot of famous rappers in the process); in the same way punk was a rejection of current rock. Notice how similar your arguments sound to the same arguments made 40 years ago against the punk movement.
Tyler is cleary an incredibly mature adult.
I sense a backlash on this over hyped fool already.
…. yeah, isn’t that what this whole thread was based on?? Good job detective.
i urge everyone to watch this:
http://www.vimeo.com/23309720
you will get tyler completely.
Headline: ‘You Light Up My Life’ composer kills self, police say
CNN link: http://bit.ly/j8RzFU
Hey indie-pc elite, I’m now more worried about the people that write fluffy-pop ballads than anything Tyler could say.
“Joseph Brooks, 73, was facing charges on 11 alleged rapes and sex assaults…” man…and then his son, “was charged in January with the murder of his ex-girlfriend”.
Man this lyric, “So many dreams I kept deep inside me/Alone in the dark but now/You’ve come along…”, has a totally different meaning for me now. Hahah, later in the song, “It can’t be wrong
When it feels so right “. Oh, the irony.
I wonder what kind of sick $#!% Celine Dion is up to.
Tyler, The Creator’s music is compelling. He produces a lot of it himself as well, which I find impressive. His flows, although filled with cartoonish violence, hatred, mysogyny, and general vulgarity, are usually flipped around and negated at a certain point. At some juncture, be it another song, later in the same song or on a different release altogether, Tyler has contradicted everything he said previously. Now, I don’t really care for any replies to this telling me that contradictions don’t amount to anything musically. What the end product of all of his lyrics are, to me, are a bunch of really satisfying flows delivered over satisfying production by a satisfying voice to listen to. He’s clearly not actually anything that his musical persona is. In a certain respect similar to the character of Slim Shady. Tyler probably grew up listening to people like Eminem, Wu Tang Clan, Necro etc. Listen to the disclaimer he gives at the beginning of “Radicals”. Tyler is not a bully. He’s a motherfucking unicorn, and fuck you if you tell him he isn’t one. Get it yet? I dunno, don’t fucking listen to OFWGKTA if you don’t like the music or are off put by the lyrics. Isn’t that the important thing to do? Don’t follow @fucktyler if you don’t want to hear the kind of shit you know very well that he’s going to say. Tegan and Sara wish they had the kind of soaring fresh popularity that Tyler has right now. He won’t be the shit forever. Nobody is.
Artistic expression, something that both parties are familiar with. But, the only major differentiating factor is that one party, is not yet fully comfortable with their own selves, i.e Tyler. Tyler admits to the fact constantly that he’s a “Fucking Kid.” And being a “kid” myself, I find it easy to identify with something without necessarily glorifying it. I enjoy Tyler’s antics and carefree attitude, but it must be acknowledged that he is substantially afraid of what the world has in store for him. And it’s sad to say, but, I honestly think what he said is true, “If I don’t make it, I’ll probably kill myself before I’m 25.” Tyler is insecure, and I can relate to that, as a teenager, so much more than his portrayed misanthropy, misogyny, and sexually illicit exploits. Rather than embracing those ideas, I see it as sort of a euphemism for the “masks” that so many young people put on to cover their true feelings. A perfect example would be Tyler’s many archetypes; Wolf Haley, Doctor T.C, Tron Cat, Thurnis, Ace, etc. Being comfortable with just “Tyler” must be a hard task. Instead of taking it so seriously especially, but not limited to , the adults, view him as what he is, an outcast amongst outcasts amongst outcasts, a kid with a twisted sense of humor that views his writing as an outlet for what most of us have dirty jokes for, or see in a video game, or a risqué French Film and possibly even our favorite books. You know what I see, As a 17 year old kid, who enjoys cartoons, skating, reading, studying, and sitting in a basement watching movies and listening to hardcore punk with my friends rather than going to a party? I see, a dude, who’s being forced to grow up, and he’s conflicted, with feelings of pure ecstasy but also yearning for what his life once was, and he’s crying, because he knew he asked for it. Be honest with yourselves, if what Tyler was saying was in a book, or in a movie, would you feel the same way? I know I wouldn’t. We all interpret things differently, I’ve spent years listening to metal and punk bands, spout constant profanity and indefinite misanthropy, diatribes on a former girlfriend’s slit throat, testaments on how to kill your best friend because you hate yourself, and painful ejaculation. And i haven’t seen anyone bat an eye at them. Why? Because it’s expected, categorized, noted and put away from your attention. And trust me, Tyler is not the first rapper to enter the realm of supposed hate, and proven immaturity, he’s just the only one in your face, the only one that your kids don’t have to search for days online to find, the one with commercials, the one with a message that concerns all those who refuse to dig deeper, the one who’s language is extremely offensive to those not familiar with the colloquial sayings, the one who’s know’s he’ll make it but lives it up because he doesn’t know how long it will last, the one who doesn’t change for your fucking expectations, at least not yet. He’s Immature, he’s unstable, he’s carefree, he’s fun loving, he’s loved, he’s what I was and hope we all were as children, he just wants to be understood, he’s what everyone subconsciously wants to be, a child.
Oh, and I Love Tegan & Sara
I keep reading over these comments and thinking to myself, “Tyler hears stuff like this every damn day, if it meant anything to him, he would do something different.” BUT it doesn’t, obviously. He’s famous for a reason, people love him because he’s so free-spirited. I was molested, and his lyrics don’t offend me. I have many gays in my family, and gay friends, and I’m still not offended. What the hell is the difference between a boy writing a song about raping someone rather than watching it on a movie or hearing about it over the radio? Nothing. It’s not like he’s encouraging it.
Him and Odd Future write this shit because they want too. Everyone is their own person, have your opinion, but don’t stick it in his face or his fans. We really don’t give a single fuck what you people have to say.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you political correctness: The death of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and real art.
If you get offended by shit; don’t watch it, or listen to it, and get on with your lives. Trying to censor stuff that people like is going to fuel a lot more hatred than a rapper saying “faggot”.
so stupid that a person just see “funny” write a comment like that in twiter