The Wrens Kevin Whelan and Charles Bissell may have had a falling out, but Whelan is still reserving the title of “nemesis” for someone else: the National. In a new interview on the Discograffiti podcast to discuss his history with the Wrens and his recent Aeon Station debut Observatory, the Wrens co-leader begins reflecting on his career and comparing its trajectory with that of other bands.

“We never made it. And we knew it. Which is kind of interesting,” Whelan says. “Even when we were being appreciated, we never made it. We saw it. We saw it with Conor and Bright Eyes, we saw it with the Arcade Fire.” And when the interviewer brings up the National, he responds, “You know what’s so funny? Charles would laugh. They were always like my nemesis, the National. I was always just like, ‘How the F did they make it?’ You know what I mean?”

“I mean, I get it,” Whelan continues. “I’m not flagging on them. Like I totally get why and his voice, with these long kind of songs. But then you kind of get into that phase too, where it’s just like… there are just some that win the lottery ticket, and you kind of can’t be jealous of someone who wins a lottery ticket, you know what I mean? That’s the way the game goes.” Listen below starting at around the 30-minute mark.