Bill Clinton’s podcast Why Am I Telling You This? launched its second season today and featured an interview with Jason Isbell, where the singer walked the former president through his thought process as it relates to COVID-safe show protocols. Isbell, as you might recall, has been a vocal proponent of vaccine protocols on his tour and has discussed the matter on MSNBC and with Dr. Fauci.

Speaking to Clinton, Isbell explained that vaccine protocols in live-music settings “helps me do my job and be happy when I’m on stage and not be concerned and not be worried about people’s safety or about the kind of audience that I have, I just want to keep making those right decisions and keep making music. And that’s it. Ten years, 20 years, 30 years, that’s all I want to do.”

Clinton then debunked the anti-vaxx argument that even those who are fully vaccinated and boosted are still testing positive, saying, “The death rate is still 13 to 16 times higher for people who aren’t vaccinated than for people who are. And I don’t understand why that’s not enough.”

“It doesn’t seem like much of a decision there, does it?” Isbell replied, adding:

It’s hard to convince [a vaccine skeptic that “No, I really mean this, what I’m saying. I really, truly mean, I think you should get the vaccine, or I think this job should mandate vaccines, or I think this venue should mandate vaccines. That’s the reason that I’m telling you this is because I believe it.” And I think we’ve gotten to a point where so many bad faith actors have come onto the scene and argued things that they didn’t really believe in order to rile up their fan base or their constituency or their family that it’s easy to assume that everybody is arguing in bad faith.

I think if we could figure out a way just to convince people that, “I’m not trying to trick you into anything, I really just truly believe this is better for all of us,” then we might be able to make some progress with it, but some people just don’t want to listen.

Listen to the full episode here.