Last year, the music industry veteran Emily White published her book How To Build A Sustainable Music Career & Collect All Revenue Streams. Right now, White is turning that book into a new interview-series podcast, in which she’ll talk to different people in the business about the things that she lays out in the chapters of the book. The podcast will feature conversations with people like Imogen Heap and Wilco’s Pat Sansone. Today, there’s a new episode where White talks to Bon Iver’s Justin Vernon, whose music career is probably more sustainable than most. (Case in point: A new Taylor Swift collab may be forthcoming.)

In the new episode, Vernon talks to White and her class about the whole origin story that led up to his debut album For Emma, Forever Ago, an LP that was originally self-released and then became a cult hit. You probably already know that story. But on the podcast, Vernon gets more into the nuts-and-bolts aspect, and he talks about turning down offers from labels like Merge before landing at Jagjaguwar. (Merge, Vernon figured, already had Arcade Fire.)

The whole point of the episode, per White’s book, is that it’s important to have your whole artistic situation figured out before you try to turn it into a career, and Vernon’s story certainly illustrates that. Check out that episode below.

New episodes of How To Build A Sustainable Music Career & Collect All Revenue Streams come out every Monday.